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Regarding Lappers

37 posts in this topic

Preface:

I feel that I shouldn't have to make a topic about this, but I feel that I have to draw the line somewhere and I need to get this off my chest. I want to make this a clear statement because it seems like the only time I mention this is when I get screwed over (which trying to make a debate or an arguement when someone is angry is just set up for a complete failure). Before I start this, I just want to make a quick disclaimer. The following message that I make is for the sole purpose of criticism and analysis. I am putting everything on the table, to try to make a movement for the better for the DRL. For those that are reading this, you may not agree or believe anything I am about to tell you in this topic and thats okay. I am offering you the chance to have your opinions and thoughts be heard too. Feel free to post about your opinions, thoughts and other information regarding this matter. This is open to anybody and your opinion isn't going to be bashed (that would be rather childish and silly). This is meant to be a friendly/non-hostile discussion.

The Verdict:

The title of this thread speaks for itself. One condition/rule about the DRL is that the lapped racers have the ability to block, wreck and straight up interfere with the race going on with a leading racer(s). In my opinion, it is detrimental to the core activity of racing.

Here is why:

  • Makes everything COMPLETELY casual based
  • Punishes the better racer for racing better
  • Rewards the worse racer for racing worse
  • Rewards the bystander(s)

I understand that the DRL is mainly focused on the casual atmosphere of Halo racing, which is absolutely acceptable in every way. The whole point of something being casual is for something to be fun for everybody. However, casual or not, preventable incidents that are detrimental to somebodies racing experience (assuming it is out of their control and in this case, lappers) is not fun and should not be encouraged. Nobody likes to be cheated out of something they've earned, so why should that be promoted? Halo: Reach as a game was a perfect example of this concept. Reach had random mechanics incorporated into the game to make it more casual based, so that casual players had a chance against competitive players. This idea never works because it makes contests based on pure luck and less raw skill (it led to the huge population drop of Halo, over the years).

The better racer shouldn't be punished for better racing and the worst rewarded for racing worse. There are also scenarios that the leader will get screwed and 2nd/3rd get off with ease, or the other way around where 1st gets away when the runner ups get all the trouble. That should never happen. Surely anybody can say that lappers play a part in racing, which is correct. Lappers also race for their own positions regardless of being lapped. But the leaders have a more valuable race, by racing for higher positions, therefore making them a higher priority than the lappers. This is what makes balanced racing.

Something that is misinterpreted and misunderstood is the "it makes it interesting" factor. The truth is that it doesn't make it more interesting but rather more bogus. I never like to be handed a win because someone was unfortunate enough to be cheated/robbed of their victory. I feel rather ashamed, guilty and undeserving to be honest. Whats worse is that all of this gets put onto a leaderboard, too. I am not just saying this as a hypocrite because I get screwed over. I feel the pain for anybody else that has fallen victim to this and I like to think that I speak for everybody on this matter.

All of this relates back to the competitive vs casual debate. For example, DRL has a casual atmosphere with a competitive jive to it. Some people I have talked to are under the assumption that competitive settings would make the tournament atmosphere competitive. That is false. Competitive settings are meant to make things balanced and fair (this can also be said about the DRL map choices, which is. A casual atmosphere (which is what DRL is) with competitive settings would be like a bunch of guys playing Halo 3 at a friends house, because competitive settings work well for casuals anyway. Let the better be better, don't tilt the odds against the competitive to make it unfair for them.

Supporting Examples:

The following videos are for criticism/analysis and they pretty much speak for themselves. It should be noted that most of these incidents are accidental. Accidental lapper incidents are bad as it is and it just goes to show that intentional incidents are just ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jr0VPwzZuU

It is by coincidence that 3/4 of the videos are from Supercross footage.

Determination:

A blue flag rule would fix all these problems and put a halt to unnecessary drama.

blue flag

noun

2. MOTOR RACING

a blue flag used to indicate to a driver that there is another driver trying to lap him.

There is a blue flag rule in every type of motorsport racing. It wouldn't hurt to put it in DRL and it would actually serve it for the better. For those that say it would make the tournaments boring, I strongly disagree. Races that don't have lapper incidents are quite fun and entertaining as is. So far, this issue has only created drama from my understanding. It also seems that the majority people that are against a blue flag rule are the back marker and mid-pack racers, because lappers are beneficial to them.

Regarding the "turquoise" flag:

By Whiskey Warm

turquoise flag

1. Calling for a turquoise flag when lapping someone, means calling a truce. Neither party can wreck the other, but both can still race at full speed. There is no obligation for the lapped car to let the lapper through, they can block and race defensive, but no deliberate wrecking.

2. It will last until you are separated again. You cannot take back a turquoise flag while you are still battling them.

3. Calling the flag is optional. Examples of when you might not want to call it: So they can wreck the lapped racer i.e. if a front runner is going for Dirtiest Racer votes -or- If you think you can get past faster if the other car is trying to wreck you.

4. The call can only be made by the lapper, not the one being lapped.

5. In situations where 2 or more are close and lapping someone, then a turquoise flag is universal. If someone calls it, it applies to all in the group. No of that group can wreck the racer they are lapping and the lappee cannot wreck any of them (but the group can still wreck each other).

A few other people have asked me about this. I am going to be honest, I do not like this and I personally think that this doesn't even come close to solving the problem of lappers.

1. Letting lappers block, but not wreck is pointless. A lapper can end up accidentally wrecking somebody from blocking. It would also be very confusing for the lapped racer to perform that task, it would be simple to just move out of the way. The lappers shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the higher priority race.

2. *Works the same as the blue flag.

3. This just creates more chaos and defeats the whole purpose of trying to solve the problem. Lappers shouldn't have to be an obstacle in the first place.

4. *Works the same as the blue flag.

5. *Works the same as the blue flag.

I appreciate the concern and effort you share to help fix this, but I think there needs to be a different solution to this problem and I think the blue flag is your answer.

Conclussion:

I am not here to make drama, I don't want any problems and I am here for the same reason everybody else is. People will say: "if you don't like it, don't race in it." I like racing with people in the DRL to wreck as it is really fun and entertaining. But I don't like dealing with this bogus rule and I wish for it to be changed. I don't whine about it, I make a valid complaint about it and criticize it as I have every right and reason to. I am not the only one in this argument and I think everyone would be happy if this was changed.

If you want to say no to everything I said as your personal opinion, then so be it and power to you. Like I said, you will not be bashed for having an opinion and everyone deserves to be entitled to theirs. But just remember that if you make your opinion as a statement, make sure that you have supporting evidence to back up your claim. If not, then your words will be held against you. Think before you post!

Thank you for reading!

Edited by Cassel
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This is very formal and well written. I personally agree with absolutely everything you stated in this post about the DRL, and would love this change. It's very unfair to the better racers who earn there position, only to get messed up by the lappers first.

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I've read the whole post, but it's late here so I'm not gonna respond directly at the moment.

I too have been thinking about this, and clearly some has mentioned the turquoise flag to you. I will be trialing it in the next standard tourney I host.

Here's the post I made in the DRL host message:

I've been thinking about a potential new rule, that would be optional for hosts, regarding lapping.

As we known Wrecking is great, the physics work great in Halo 4 and there's a skill gap and a learning curve. But the main reason I consider it competitive is that there's a trade off with racing clean. Sometimes trying to wreck is the wrong choice and will cost you time.

However when you're being lapped, this trade off is missing, there is no reason not to try to wreck someone as hard as possible, there are no consequences to failing.

My idea is somewhere between a blue flag (lapped cars moving over) and a green one(all dirty all the time): A turquoise flag.

1. Calling for a turquoise flag when lapping someone, means calling a truce. Neither party can wreck the other, but both can still race at full speed. There is no obligation for the lapped car to let the lapper through, they can block and race defensive, but no deliberate wrecking.

2. It will last until you are separated again. You cannot take back a turquoise flag while you are still battling them.

3. Calling the flag is optional. Examples of when you might not want to call it: So they can wreck the lapped racer i.e. if a front runner is going for Dirtiest Racer votes -or- If you think you can get past faster if the other car is trying to wreck you.

4. The call can only be made by the lapper, not the one being lapped.

5. In situations where 2 or more are close and lapping someone, then a turquoise flag is universal. If someone calls it, it applies to all in the group. No of that group can wreck the racer they are lapping and the lappee cannot wreck any of them (but the group can still wreck each other).

This would be completely optional for hosts to include in their tournaments.

What do you guys think?

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I mentioned the Turquoise Flag to Cassel the other day, and he said he though it was stupid

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i say... no

Alright, what is your reasoning?

I mentioned the Turquoise Flag to Cassel the other day, and he said he though it was stupid

Yes I did. However I didn't mean to make it sound hostile, or actually stupid (i.e. saying a map is garbage, but not actually meaning so because that is the first thing that comes to mind when you think it). I meant a way to actually say that the idea is highly flawed. Nothing was meant as an attack directly at Whiskey. You asked for my opinion, I gave it to you and I said why I thought it wasn't a good idea. I gave good reasoning and I pretty much stated it again in this topic. If you want my official answer, it should just be a blue flag rule as the turquoise flag is too complex and rather insignificant to solving the problem at hand. There will still be chaos between racers and lappers with a turquoise flag. It would just be easier and better with a blue flag.

Whiskey I will update the topic saying everything about the turquoise flag. I am going to honestly say that I do not like it. However, I still appreciate how you are interested in making a difference in this squad.

Edited by Cassel
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well you wanted reasons so here it is I just think a blue flag rule is stupid because most of the tracks used in the drl dont have places to pull over and wait (heaven,abandon,solace and adrift)tracks and THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I QUIT THE ORL BECAUSE IT GOT BORING AND ANNOYING EVERY FUNKING LAP BEING TOLD TO PULL OVER IN THE DAMN PIT AND WAIT FOR THEM TO PASS AND I dont understand why the hell u care that theres not a blue flag rule if you dont even like the drl and if you hate being wrecked by lappers then dont race in the tournaments tbh cassel I hate being in tournaments with you because you constantly bitch about being wrecked by lappers ... anyways to get back on topic here I also think this is stupid is because this just takes away the fun and intinsity of passing lappers...

please note this is all my opinion and hope cassel that you understand my point. Im not trying to start an arrument or anything

Edited by Wolf 8499

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Wolf, calm down. Why do you have to come off to Cassel like that? Be more mature, please. Also, you think it's very annoying to get told to pull over? Well it's very annoying for the leaders to have to get wrecked by lappers, ruining their race completely. Leaders should not get punished for leading and then messed up by racers out of contention, period. I read everything you wrote, and I don't think you made a very "valid" statement. The only thing I got off it, was you being angry and ranting about your personnel hatred for being lapped, which can be prevented.

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Wolf, calm down. Why do you have to come off to Cassel like that? Be more mature, please. Also, you think it's very annoying to get told to pull over? Well it's very annoying for the leaders to have to get wrecked by lappers, ruining their race completely. Leaders should not get punished for leading and then messed up by racers out of contention, period. I read everything you wrote, and I don't think you made a very "valid" statement. The only thing I got off it, was you being angry and ranting about your personnel hatred for being lapped, which can be prevented.

hes a fricking hipacrite because when hes in first he says wreck the person in second or as long as it benifits him

so this post if funking piontless

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well you wanted reasons so here it is I just think a blue flag rule is stupid because most of the tracks used in the drl dont have places to pull over and wait (heaven,abandon,solace and adrift)tracks and THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I QUIT THE ORL BECAUSE IT GOT BORING AND ANNOYING EVERY FUNKING LAP BEING TOLD TO PULL OVER IN THE DAMN PIT AND WAIT FOR THEM TO PASS AND I dont understand why the hell u care that theres not a blue flag rule if you dont even like the drl and if you hate being wrecked by lappers then dont race in the tournaments tbh cassel I hate being in tournaments with you because you constantly bitch about being wrecked by lappers ... anyways to get back on topic here I also think this is stupid is because this just takes away the fun and intinsity of passing lappers...

please note this is all my opinion and hope cassel that you understand my point. Im not trying to start an arrument or anything

Well, I said it once and I will say it again. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That is perfectly fine as I respect your opinion. However, you declared your opinion as a statement. Like I said, if you're going to turn opinion into information, then you need to have supporting evidence to support your claim. You will now be held against your own words. I warned you when I said "think before you post". With that being declared, lets move on.

Anybody can move over on any track. The whole point of moving over is to give the leaders the main race line. If there is a section that is too tight, then the lapper will be required to move over at a safer spot. As for your own personal misfortunes in ORL, that is your own problem. You are responsible for your actions and to even mention that in this topic just makes you void of any sort of integrity here. The relationship and opinion I have over DRL is completely up to me. But hey, you mentioned it, so I will clarify it. I like the DRL, aside from poor map choices and bullshit rules like the lapper rule for example. I like to have wrecking people and many other people do too. I even quit DRL before for the same reasons I mentioned now. However, new management and a new race gametype made me give this league a second chance. The difference now is that I actually care and I want the better for this squad, because it has unlimited potential to be awesome. But it is crippled by poor conditions and judgement. I say all of this to raise awareness as action should be taken to fix this. I don't bitch. I make valid complaints as a form of criticism and give supporting evidence to my claims. Calling it bitching because you don't want to listen to it is just stupid.

Soda pretty much said the last part of your sentence for me.

hes a fricking hipacrite because when hes in first he says wreck the person in second or as long as it benifits him

so this post if funking piontless

Okay, that is not cool and you just crossed the line. That is nothing but bullshit and you are straight up lying. If I was a hypocrite, then there would be no need for this topic and I wouldn't actually say anything. But I actually stand behind my claim and you can ask anybody else too, I always tell lappers to not interfere with the leaders regardless if it is me or not. Hell, ask anybody in the #43 DRL tourney this Thursday. I was sticking up for all the race leaders that where running into lappers. Ask anybody else in any other tournament and they will say it. I do not like to win bogus tournaments and I wish everyone would just play fair (I even said that I feel guilty about winning that way).

Whatever credibility or respect you have ever had in my book, you just lost in these posts. You clearly have proved to me that you are out to get me and make me look bad because you have some sort of personal problem with me or whatever. You have brought nothing to the table to move this debate forward and anybody can tell that you want to start an argument with me by making childish personal jabs at me. All I wanted was a non-hostile discussion, not a poo flinging contest. I warned you when I said "think before you post".

Edited by Cassel
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