Mrs StarStrukk

DRL Season Points-Leaderboard Example & Discussion

89 posts in this topic

Something were going to do and which I think is a good idea, to help come to some sort of compromise, is after this coming Friday's tournament (that I'm hosting) were going to sit down with some of the more active squad members that race in the DRL a lot and see what their opinions are. Considering they haven't commented here yet, they should have some input as well.

When we revealed the system during the last tournament Mitch hosted, everyone there seemed to like the system and there wasn't any distaste (that I recall). After Friday's tournament and more input from more of our members we will come to a decision. I think that's reasonable enough for everyone.

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So seeing as I'm late to the party I'm just gonna say that from my experiences racing in the DRL I'm not that good of a driver. Personally I do not think it would be fair for people such as real deal to get screwed out of a good position because he is not dirty. Also I shouldn't be rewarded a better posterior just because I'm a dirty driver.

The race results and the dirty racing results should not be combined IMO because it rewards people like me who will usually get top 3 in the DR votes but between 8th-4th in the standings and takes away points from the faster, better, and cleaner drivers who will get near the bottem in the DR votes.

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Me like it a lot. great work Star. that's a good point too rob

Edited by Wolf 8499

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As Star pointed out, asking on Friday should get some more opinions from people who haven't replied to this topic. It should also get a wider variety of opinions, because most so far have been from people who tend to race more cleanly, so it will be interesting to hear what the more dirty racers think of this.

I would also just like to say that the things being discussed here are also being internally debated, and we hope to come to a conclusion soon.


I'm kind of disappointed with the way this topic has progressed. One of the reasons why HTSX has lasted as long as it has is because we listen to a lot of what our members say. Your members usually know what's best for them but you can sometimes add in something a little risky to spice things up a little. Our most recent example of this was the draft, which had a 50/50 chance of either making HT Supercross more intense than ever or utterly destroying our reputation and driving (no pun intended) members away. The fact that the DRL is seeking to become more competitive in nature adds an entirely new set of problems and variables. You guys are venturing into an entirely new domain of racing. It's important to know what your members are looking for.

Addressing the members: There are better ways to get the changes you guys want or to, at the very least, come to a compromise. What I've heard and read so far isn't going to get the job done.

If you guys want my honest opinion, I actually like the idea of having wrecks go towards your points. I do think that it could be set up a little better, though. Which puts me into a healthy, solid middle position here. Everyone makes valid points that, because it's a voting system based off of human votes, the way things are currently set up might make tournament outcomes unfair. If it were my system, I might make the way Dirtiest Racer votes go towards the final point total differently. Maybe every 2 votes earns you a point. Racers that wrecked while being lapped might count against their number of votes somehow. This is all just brainstorming, but I do think that there's a way to make this work.

I'm not going to lock this topic because I want to see things calm down. Please make sure that they do. I'll be actively checking up on this, so keep things civil.

Thanks for the feedback, Jeff. I understand why listening to your members is important, as obviously they're the ones that actually keep the squad running; the DRL would kinda such if it was just 4 hosts in each tournament :p (as stated above, we are debating the current feedback and are trying to get more from other racers too).

Regarding your alternate DR system, I do agree that human votes can, and if we can't stop them, will skew the tournament and season results. Revamping the actual DR system to counteract this is a good idea to think about, rather than just changing the way it works in the tournaments. Your proposed system is an interesting idea, but personally I don't feel that it would change the human problems, and it might make the number of total points available to DR inconsistent (different numbers of passes, fewer members in the tournament, people lagging out for a race and not being able to vote etc. could all reduce the total number of available votes in a certain tournament, causing the DR votes to race standings ratio to change from tournament-to-tournament.

Perhaps the total number of votes could affect how much each vote is worth, so the total points available would remain consistent.

Changing the votes for different situations could be interesting and make things feel fairer for people wherever they are in the race, but I think something like that could get complicated, and we're trying to keep things simpler by changing the leaderboard from a ratings system to a points system.

They're some good points to consider and good brainstorming starters, so we will see what we can come up with. If anyone else has any feedback/new ideas about the way we do DR, that would also be appreciated.

One idea that I did have which could reduce the human effect is to have everyone message their vote (and perhaps a quick reason, too) to the host in private after each race. This would stop people who may try to be 'cool' or 'funny' by, for example, not voting for someone who always races well, even if they did a lot of wrecks. It could also make people more honest in their voting, by making everything private so people don't get annoyed at each other for voting/not voting for a certain person. However, I do realise that votes being private stops people being able to appeal votes, so that could be a potential problem. It may also be slower, as most people are faster at talking than they are at typing (especially typing on an Xbox without a chatpad; although if they want to use a keyboard Xbox.com can be used to send messages).

An alternative is to just race against robots/A.I. who are always completely honest about wrecks :p

#JeffForPrez

Damn let me just start out by saying no one that was supposedly "AGAINST" the idea was ever a hater. All we (Real Deal, Me, Cassel and others) ever said was critique as I often said in my posts. We were trying to help the squad and not bash it. We never started anything and kept it civil trying to help the squad. Besides that, I can't believe the way that I'm kind of being treated. I'm sorry the majority of the people except for Cookie and Star agreed with Real Deal, Cassel and others. I'm sorry I let my opinion out in trying to help the league. Won't happen again...

Ps. I was just clarifying myself in this post and I probably won't care anymore. I'm not starting anything here either, let that be clear.

I'm sorry you feel this way, Gogeta. We understand that you guys want to make suggestions that try to improve the squad, which is why we have considered your suggestions (there have been discussions between the hosts about the pros and cons of each system, so don't worry, your ideas and suggestions are being considered). I also ask you to see our side of the argument though, too: we want to change the way the DRL works to add more emphasis on being dirty and to encourage it; we are not just trying to continue what we have been doing already but in a different format.

So seeing as I'm late to the party I'm just gonna say that from my experiences racing in the DRL I'm not that good of a driver. Personally I do not think it would be fair for people such as real deal to get screwed out of a good position because he is not dirty. Also I shouldn't be rewarded a better posterior just because I'm a dirty driver.

The race results and the dirty racing results should not be combined IMO because it rewards people like me who will usually get top 3 in the DR votes but between 8th-4th in the standings and takes away points from the faster, better, and cleaner drivers who will get near the bottem in the DR votes.

I completely understand where you are coming from Rob, but that is actually what we are trying to achieve here with this new system. We want to change the way the DRL works, and actually not reward people who just race fast (there are many other leagues where they can excel), but require them to race dirty. If you're just wanting to race fast, then I'm sorry but I don't think this Season of DRL will be for you (and if you're just here to be dirty and not try in the races, you won't do very well either).

And I do know what you mean by the fact that people may get screwed out of position, but on the flip-side (tee he he, flip-side... wrecking joke... :p), why should a dirty racer get screwed out of position because they are not as fast as someone else who didn't put much effort into being dirty?

There's the other side to your last point too: someone who gets top 3 in the standings would only need 8th-4th (fairly average scores) to get the same number of points as you, so they don't exactly need to turn into completely dirty drivers enough to mess up their position.

Me like it a lot. great work Star. that's a good point too rob

Thanks for the feedback Wolf. As someone who tends to race dirtily, it would be interesting to hear your opinions on the pros and cons of the new system and the ways that other people are suggesting, if you have time ;D

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I'm sorry you feel this way, Gogeta. We understand that you guys want to make suggestions that try to improve the squad, which is why we have considered your suggestions (there have been discussions between the hosts about the pros and cons of each system, so don't worry, your ideas and suggestions are being considered). I also ask you to see our side of the argument though, too: we want to change the way the DRL works to add more emphasis on being dirty and to encourage it; we are not just trying to continue what we have been doing already but in a different format.

That's the thing though; we've dealt with the other side. Better racers had to start from somewhere, too. I know you guys want to keep it different, but there should still be a standard and a line to be drawn when you're more concerned about killing each other than actually racing.

I completely understand where you are coming from Rob, but that is actually what we are trying to achieve here with this new system. We want to change the way the DRL works, and actually not reward people who just race fast (there are many other leagues where they can excel), but require them to race dirty. If you're just wanting to race fast, then I'm sorry but I don't think this Season of DRL will be for you (and if you're just here to be dirty and not try in the races, you won't do very well either).

This goes against the very meaning of the DRL. You're supposed to attract and encourage racers, not tell them to go somewhere else (us "tryhards" make up at least half of the DRL). You can't blame "tryhards" for wanting to race here either, because we like wrecking people too. The DRL is one of the only leagues that allows it and there are constantly tournaments going on weekly. People also just want to race as often as they can.

Why are you trying to handicap the racers who are better? If somebody shows skill, they have to be rewarded for it, not handicapped just because they're better. I'm sorry Mitchell, but that's racing, or just competing in general. Like I said, dirty racing is great, but you're going too far to the point where you're actually significantly taking away from the racing. Having dirtiest racer standings and racing standings separate from each other would make an even split down the middle.

And I do know what you mean by the fact that people may get screwed out of position, but on the flip-side (tee he he, flip-side... wrecking joke... :p), why should a dirty racer get screwed out of position because they are not as fast as someone else who didn't put much effort into being dirty?

Because he did not show as much skill as the better racer. A dirty racer is not getting "screwed" out of a position, he is getting beat straight up by a better racer and he deserves to get beat. Once again, that's racing, or just competing in general.

There's the other side to your last point too: someone who gets top 3 in the standings would only need 8th-4th (fairly average scores) to get the same number of points as you, so they don't exactly need to turn into completely dirty drivers enough to mess up their position.

If you combine the racer standings with the dirtiest racer standings, then not only are you lowering the skill gap and making it random already, but you will make it even more random because the dirtiest racer votes are human. You're going to drag the "tryhard" racers into the issue with the dirtiest racer votes. If you keep them separate, then it will be fair for everybody. The "tryhard" racers will be happy, so will the dirty racers and this issue would be drama-free.

I know you don't necessarily want to listen to all the "tryhards" and you would like to see both sides. However, consider this: you have just made a brand new "competitive" series put into place. You're going to attract "tryhard" racers because you gave your new season the "competitive" title. They're giving their feedback on how to be competitive because they are speaking based on experience and they want to help out. They will encourage competitive settings because competitive settings are fair, balanced and competitive. If you don't want to use those kind of settings, then don't call your season "competitive".

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That's the thing though; we've dealt with the other side. Better racers had to start from somewhere, too. I know you guys want to keep it different, but there should still be a standard and a line to be drawn when you're more concerned about killing each other than actually racing.

Yes, and that is why racing dirty and racing fast are equal in points. Personally, I think they should be valued the same; this allows and encourages both dirty racers to improve their racing skills and fast racers to improve their wrecking skills.

This goes against the very meaning of the DRL. You're supposed to attract and encourage racers, not tell them to go somewhere else (us "tryhards" make up at least half of the DRL). You can't blame "tryhards" for wanting to race here either, because we like wrecking people too. The DRL is one of the only leagues that allows it and there are constantly tournaments going on weekly. People also just want to race as often as they can.

Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that I wanted anyone to leave, I'm just saying that if you just want to race fast and have no interest in wrecking, then you will probably not enjoy the DRL (you might do, there's nothing stopping you racing cleanly and quickly, you will just not do as well on the leaderboard).

Why are you trying to handicap the racers who are better? If somebody shows skill, they have to be rewarded for it, not handicapped just because they're better. I'm sorry Mitchell, but that's racing, or just competing in general. Like I said, dirty racing is great, but you're going too far to the point where you're actually significantly taking away from the racing. Having dirtiest racer standings and racing standings separate from each other would make an even split down the middle.

Equally, if someone shows skill at being dirty, they too should be rewarded for it to the same extent. Personally, I feel that racing fast and racing dirty are equally important, so they should be rewarded equally. It seems you think racing fast is more important, and if you don't mind, would you care to share your reasoning behind that? It might help us work out a better compromise that works for everyone.

You do make a good case for having 2 separate leaderboards though, and it is something I am willing to discuss further. Personally though, I feel that having them combined will not fit people's comfort zones straight away, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The leaderboards are not only there to determine who the best racers are and to be able to rank yourself against your friends, but to help encourage people to improve their skills. If there are 2 separate leaderboards, people won't have the same incentive to climb up the one they're not used to, but having just one means that everyone will be rewarded for what they can already do, and the more they improve in the other area the further they can move up the leaderboard.

Having just a single leaderboard also gives a much better rating of the racer's overall skill, making for easier comparisons with one another.

Because he did not show as much skill as the better racer. A dirty racer is not getting "screwed" out of a position, he is getting beat straight up by a better racer and he deserves to get beat. Once again, that's racing, or just competing in general.

(see above for section about the value of racing fast vs racing dirty)

If you combine the racer standings with the dirtiest racer standings, then not only are you lowering the skill gap and making it random already, but you will make it even more random because the dirtiest racer votes are human. You're going to drag the "tryhard" racers into the issue with the dirtiest racer votes. If you keep them separate, then it will be fair for everybody. The "tryhard" racers will be happy, so will the dirty racers and this issue would be drama-free.

This bit really interested me, as you know a lot more about the competitive side of things than me. I've heard the term being used before, but what does "lowering the skill gap" mean? Is that making the difference between 1st and last smaller? (I've tried Googling it, but most of the results refer to the gap of skills for jobs.) Also, why does combining the two aspects of racing make it more random?

I do understand about the votes being human, however, and it is something we will try to address if we can.

I know you don't necessarily want to listen to all the "tryhards" and you would like to see both sides. However, consider this: you have just made a brand new "competitive" series put into place. You're going to attract "tryhard" racers because you gave your new season the "competitive" title. They're giving their feedback on how to be competitive because they are speaking based on experience and they want to help out. They will encourage competitive settings because competitive settings are fair, balanced and competitive. If you don't want to use those kind of settings, then don't call your season "competitive".

I do agree that competitive may have been not quite the word we were looking for. We want to make it more competitive than it actually is by rewarding doing well more than we do, thus giving people more of an incentive to race, but we're not looking to turn it into an ultra-competitive league.

I also understand that we need to make sure that the league does not rely on randomness and that it is fair for everyone, but I believe we can do this without splitting people into two different camps based on their racing style.

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I race in here to do the best I can to win using tactics such as dive-bombing, blocking, ramming, and colliding. I don't race in here just so I can intentionally wreck people for the sake of intentionally wrecking people.

The system you guys have put forth (even with some of the recommendations modifying it) is going to be extremely biased toward the racer who only races to intentionally wreck people. By doing this new system you are creating a one size fits all squad. Nobody in here has the same reasons to race, thus the one size fits all approach is practically alienating the competitive racer and catering to the racer who only races to intentionally wreck people. I am strongly opposed to this system and if it is implemented in any form I'm not going to participate in any DRL events that use it.

By the way, having all these changes is pointless when the existing system was satisfactory. I'm not going to argue for changing the proposals, I'm arguing for completely abandoning them.

Edited by King Edward I

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I race in here to do the best I can to win using tactics such as dive-bombing, blocking, ramming, and colliding. I don't race in here just so I can intentionally wreck people for the sake of intentionally wrecking people.

The system you guys have put forth (even with some of the recommendations modifying it) is going to be extremely biased toward the racer who only races to intentionally wreck people. By doing this new system you are creating a one size fits all squad. Nobody in here has the same reasons to race, thus the one size fits all approach is practically alienating the competitive racer and catering to the racer who only races to intentionally wreck people. I am strongly opposed to this system and if it is implemented in any form I'm not going to participate in any DRL events that use it.

By the way, having all these changes is pointless when the existing system was satisfactory. I'm not going to argue for changing the proposals, I'm arguing for completely abandoning them.

Thank you for your feedback, Edward. Why do you say that it is biased towards dirty racing? Dirty and fast racing both contribute equal amounts, so I'm interested to find out about your thought process if you wouldn't mind sharing.

That's an interesting point about possibly catering to too many people. The problem is that we want to make sure we cater more to people that are being dirty than we are doing currently, but we do not want to alienate anyone from the squad (I know that people who only want to race competitively probably won't enjoy the squad as much, but unfortunately I don't see a way to please everyone without splitting the DRL into two different camps of racers based on their racing style).

Yes, the current system was satisfactory, but we want it to be better than that. We want to be a squad renowned for being dirty, not just being a squad that allows being dirty as something on the side.

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Yes, and that is why racing dirty and racing fast are equal in points. Personally, I think they should be valued the same; this allows and encourages both dirty racers to improve their racing skills and fast racers to improve their wrecking skills.

But the system you're trying to promote is unbalanced. You're promoting wrecking to the point where it takes away from the actual racing.

Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that I wanted anyone to leave, I'm just saying that if you just want to race fast and have no interest in wrecking, then you will probably not enjoy the DRL (you might do, there's nothing stopping you racing cleanly and quickly, you will just not do as well on the leaderboard).

Who ever said anything about "tryhard" racers were going to intentionally race clean? If or when the opportunity comes, they will play their part. But its not anybodies fault when they use their skill to their advantage and end up checking out by 30 seconds over 2nd place with a clear track in front of them. Asking them to sandbag by "going slower" just to make them play demolition derby with the other racers is when/where you start taking away from the actual racing.

Equally, if someone shows skill at being dirty, they too should be rewarded for it to the same extent. Personally, I feel that racing fast and racing dirty are equally important, so they should be rewarded equally. It seems you think racing fast is more important, and if you don't mind, would you care to share your reasoning behind that? It might help us work out a better compromise that works for everyone.

No, they shouldn't be. Racing and racing dirty are two completely different categories and they should both be rewarded separately from each other. Trying to make them mean the same way will end up taking one away from the other. In this case, trying to get the "tryhards" to go slower so they can kill each other makes the skill gap (I'll explain it further down) tighter. It gives the dirty racers a chance against the "tryhard" racers because you're eliminating the skill gap, so it ends up being a giant clusterfunk and a mess to the point where the cream won't rise to the top. That's not how competitive nature works and it is very unfair. Doing this means that you're catering to the casual and catering to the casual is the last thing that you should do.

You do make a good case for having 2 separate leaderboards though, and it is something I am willing to discuss further. Personally though, I feel that having them combined will not fit people's comfort zones straight away, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The leaderboards are not only there to determine who the best racers are and to be able to rank yourself against your friends, but to help encourage people to improve their skills. If there are 2 separate leaderboards, people won't have the same incentive to climb up the one they're not used to, but having just one means that everyone will be rewarded for what they can already do, and the more they improve in the other area the further they can move up the leaderboard.

It is a bad thing. Leaderboards will only mean anything if the stats that go into it are accurate and fair. Making an all-in-one leaderboard mashes everyone together and nobody can accurately tell who is better than one another.

Having just a single leaderboard also gives a much better rating of the racer's overall skill, making for easier comparisons with one another.

No it doesn't. Being good at wrecking should not make you look like a better racer. Once again, they're two completely different categories altogether. Not that they can't be important as one another, but they should be just as important individually and separately from one another. I'll keep saying it: the trouble starts when they conflict with one another.

(see above for section about the value of racing fast vs racing dirty)

"Because he did not show as much skill as the better racer. A dirty racer is not getting "screwed" out of a position, he is getting beat straight up by a better racer and he deserves to get beat. Once again, that's racing, or just competing in general."

This bit really interested me, as you know a lot more about the competitive side of things than me. I've heard the term being used before, but what does "lowering the skill gap" mean? Is that making the difference between 1st and last smaller? (I've tried Googling it, but most of the results refer to the gap of skills for jobs.) Also, why does combining the two aspects of racing make it more random?

The skill gap is the natural gap of skill between competitors that measures somebody being better than one another. Tightening the skill gap makes it more random. Eliminating the skill gap altogether makes it completely random.

I do understand about the votes being human, however, and it is something we will try to address if we can.

By pushing this system forward, you're allowing the flaws of the dirtiest racer voting to conflict with the "tryhard" racers who are innocent and should have nothing to do with it. Its like dragging your friends into a bad relationship with your girlfriend that they have no business, nor desire, to be apart of.

I do agree that competitive may have been not quite the word we were looking for. We want to make it more competitive than it actually is by rewarding doing well more than we do, thus giving people more of an incentive to race, but we're not looking to turn it into an ultra-competitive league.

Competitive or not, your system has been proven that its not balanced. Competitive settings don't make someone competitive. Competitive racers will have a competitive incentive whether you try to handicap them or not. With that being said, there's nothing wrong with trying to make something balanced and fair for everybody. I don't believe the DRL is being steered down that path.

I also understand that we need to make sure that the league does not rely on randomness and that it is fair for everyone, but I believe we can do this without splitting people into two different camps based on their racing style.

No, you can't. The system you're promoting is an accident waiting to happen. You're trying to cater to the casual racers to make up for their lack of skill against the competitive racers. This is how it makes it into a lottery. Competitive people don't like randomness when they compete, so they will get frustrated. When you're frustrated, you will lose patience. When you lose patience, you will get angry. By now you have a slate full of mad "tryhard" racers throwing up red-flags that your system doesn't work. While you could come back and say "we won't know until we try", what about this topic? More than a handful of people here are speaking based on experienced in racing. The people with experience (like me) can tell you through common sense that something won't work. Like I said, your system has been proven that its not balanced. Side stepping the feedback and being cynical about it does nothing to prevent the problem. If you have heavy resistance in this topic over these ideas, do you really think that the race lobbies will be any different?

Listen to your members and implement the changes that your members recommend. Trust me.

Edited by Cassel
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